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GLBT Issues

Post  Dar on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:49 am

I think it is terrible that many people get bullied, harassed, and worse for not fitting into the heterosexual male and heterosexual female cookie cutter roles. I wish I could wave a magic wand and suddenly humans would treat their fellow humans as humans regardless of sexual orientation or gender. Unfortunately, I can't.

The best I know to do is to try and educate and or shame those who act so childishly. That's not very much. So, I feel rather impotent when it comes to this issue. Its like standing around and hoping that humanity will grow up eventually. The thing is, I don't see this growing up happening any time soon.

Is there more that can be done?

Dar

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  mood2 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:42 pm

It's still a huge problem around the world, tho I'd say in places like the UK where I live the pace of change in terms of both attitudes and legislation has been remarkable. (In 50 yrs or so we've gone from gay men having sex being a crime, to gay marriage being on the table and pretty much inevitable, and Bi being the height of fashion in some trendy circles).

IMO this is largely because the notion of civil rights and the harm oppression can do has been made familiar to us by womens' and race civil rights movements, and the LGBTQ rights movement doesn't have to start from scratch explaining the basics. In other words, there already exists a broad acknowledgement that inequality under the law and personal bigotry are Bad Things. This puts the onus on the antis to make the case for why it's different when it comes to LGBTQ people. Certain church leaders have launched an organised backlash, but they're stuck with resorting to risible arguments about dictionary definitions, F/M complementarity and slippery slopes, because coming out (heh) and directly saying teh gay is a sin! isn't good PR nowadays in the UK. Which mostly only wash with people already in the religious anti camp. And they make themselves look like anachronistic, blinkered idiots to many people. And oddly obsessed about this to my mind! (Of all the stuff going on in society which you'd hope the chuch would want to take a stand on, it's gay sex of all things which might end up risking church disestablishment in the UK. It's funny and sad).

So overall the picture is looking good where I live. Tho of course in reality LGBTQ people still live in a heteronormative society with all the subtle hassles that entails. And still never know if the next person they meet is going to give them shit, if it will be safe to come out at a new job, whether the neighbours will give them a hard time when they move house, if they hold their partners hand in public they'll get beaten up, if family will reject them, if friends will take a step away, etc. Particularly the Ts.

So on that level as you say you can be a good neighbour, friend and workmate, and make people around you who aren't at least feel uncomfortable about it and not kid themselves they speak for you. And non LGBTQ people actively making the arguments too is a very good thing imo. It's seen as more 'objective' and takes the burden off LGBTQ people who can get mighty sick of repeatedly explaining really basic shit. (Tho the one thing that makes the most difference is LGBTQ people being out. Being represented in entertainment and other media, being visible in all walks of life. It humanises and de-mystifies, and shows we're pretty much like the next idiot, not this weird 'other').

On the legal level, there's the usual signing petitions, writing to your rep type of stuff as specific issues like gay marriage come up. The antis often have an inbuilt constituency whose ear they have through their churches or whatever, they can be pretty savvy and effective when it comes to mobilising their 'flock'. And their voices get a megaphone because the media will report on and interview some bishop, give him an opinion piece, just because he's a bishop, rather than just another wacky phobe off the street. We have to work extra hard to counter that. The online petition sites help a lot, we can get similarly huge numbers through our own looser networks that way, and with little effort. Even posting about campaigns on sites like this can play a part.

When it comes to other parts of the world where things can be much much worse, sometimes fatal, for LGBTQ people, I dunno. There are international orgs which we can try to support, but it seems so hopeless. The activists in those places where the oppression is worst tend to be the most isolated. Like you I wish I knew what we could do to help change that.

mood2

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:19 am

Dar wrote:I think it is terrible that many people get bullied, harassed, and worse for not fitting into the heterosexual male and heterosexual female cookie cutter roles. I wish I could wave a magic wand and suddenly humans would treat their fellow humans as humans regardless of sexual orientation or gender. Unfortunately, I can't.

The best I know to do is to try and educate and or shame those who act so childishly. That's not very much. So, I feel rather impotent when it comes to this issue. Its like standing around and hoping that humanity will grow up eventually. The thing is, I don't see this growing up happening any time soon.

Is there more that can be done?
Think about it.
Go with the premise "Human beings are not baby production machines." and make the premise static.
Now answer the question: Who should have children?

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  Dar on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:06 am

none wrote:
Think about it.
Go with the premise "Human beings are not baby production machines." and make the premise static.
Now answer the question: Who should have children?

I've thought about it. I'm still thinking about it. Even after I come to some conclusions or positions, I'll likely think more about it.

I agree that human beings are not baby producing machines.

I'm not so sure about making any premise static. Making a premise static sounds a lot to me like hardening one's position on that premise and becoming dogmatic about it. I do doubt that I'll ever be persuaded that humans are exclusively baby producing machines though.

It's not for me to decide who should have children. I don't really think its for anyone to decide who should have children. If someone wants a child, there are ways they can go about having one.

I don't see how any of this addresses reducing the bigotry, harassment, and crimes directed towards those who do not fit into typical male or female gender roles.

Dar

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:05 am

Dar wrote:
none wrote:
Think about it.
Go with the premise "Human beings are not baby production machines." and make the premise static.
Now answer the question: Who should have children?

I've thought about it. I'm still thinking about it. Even after I come to some conclusions or positions, I'll likely think more about it.

I agree that human beings are not baby producing machines.

I'm not so sure about making any premise static. Making a premise static sounds a lot to me like hardening one's position on that premise and becoming dogmatic about it. I do doubt that I'll ever be persuaded that humans are exclusively baby producing machines though.

It's not for me to decide who should have children. I don't really think its for anyone to decide who should have children. If someone wants a child, there are ways they can go about having one.

I don't see how any of this addresses reducing the bigotry, harassment, and crimes directed towards those who do not fit into typical male or female gender roles.
Change the question.
Who wants children?
Let the premise remain the static....

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  Dar on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:12 am

Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.

How else could the question be answered? Do only non-college educated persons want children? Do only trans-women want children? Do only black persons want children? Of course not. Does every person want children? Of course not. Only those persons that want children, want children. The premise of humans not being baby production machines doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

How does this help reduce bigotry, hatred, and crimes directed towards those who do not fit into typical male or female gender roles?

Dar

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:00 am

Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  scott1328 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:07 am

none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.

scott1328

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:09 am

scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
Projection, nice.
Options versus option, it is your decision.

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  scott1328 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:25 am

none wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
Projection, nice.
Options versus option, it is your decision.

Eschew obfuscation, preferable
Informative sentences versus deepities.

scott1328

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:34 am

scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
I have options.

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  scott1328 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:49 am

none wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
I have options.

That's wonderful...

Now, did you have something to say that is on topic for this thread: namely GLBT activism?

scott1328

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:01 am

scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
I have options.

That's wonderful...

Now, did you have something to say that is on topic for this thread: namely GLBT activism?
Yep, GLBT limits options.

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  scott1328 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:12 am

none wrote:
hidden for brevity:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.


I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
I have options.

That's wonderful...

Now, did you have something to say that is on topic for this thread: namely GLBT activism?
Yep, GLBT limits options.

bullshit.

Do you know what the "B" in GLBT stands for? Bi-sexuals have more "options" in relationships than hetero- or homo-

Gay men and women and transgender are not infertile, they can have children if they desire, or adopt, or foster.

Anyway, that's enough for this de-rail. Perhaps you could contribute to the OP point about GLBT activism.

scott1328

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Re: GLBT Issues

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:17 am

scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
hidden for brevity:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
none wrote:
Dar wrote:Who wants children? I hate to be tautological here, but I think that is the only decent way to answer that question. Those who want children, want children.
...
I am either a baby production machine or I am not a baby production machine and others are observed and evaluated according to my perception of myself as either a baby production machine or not being a baby production machine.
If I am not a baby production machine then my parts are used for personal gratification.
If I am a baby production machine then my parts are used for either personal gratification or baby production or both and a new being can exist that could experience personal gratification.
Options versus option.



I have no idea what point you are attempting to make. So, please, so would you drop the profundities and just say plainly what you mean.
I have options.

That's wonderful...

Now, did you have something to say that is on topic for this thread: namely GLBT activism?
Yep, GLBT limits options.

bullshit.

Do you know what the "B" in GLBT stands for? Bi-sexuals have more "options" in relationships than hetero- or homo-

Gay men and women and transgender are not infertile, they can have children if they desire, or adopt, or foster.

Anyway, that's enough for this de-rail. Perhaps you could contribute to the OP point about GLBT activism.
committed relationships are not the objective of GLBT activism?

none

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Re: GLBT Issues

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