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do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

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do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:29 am

heck, I don't much about humanism either, but heck I thought I would throw this question out there.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  uncrystal on Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:45 am

If you ask them I'm sure they would say they do espouse humanist values and that humanist and feminist values are parallel because feminism is "the social and political equality between the sexes" and "patriarchy hurts men too" etc.

If you're asking *me* I think they espouse feminism values that align with basic feminist theory (which does not think much of the menz).

Although, my suggestion would ultimately be to read the threads on A+safe and decide for yourself.


Last edited by uncrystal on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:29 am

honestly, and bluntly, I often overlook the obvious.. such as the main page and the details of the pages it links to.
I thank you for the response.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  uncrystal on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:06 am

It's just that I think you'll have a somewhat difficult time finding a completely unbiased opinion of A+safe either here or on their actual forum. Most people on the A+safe forum have a vested interest in presenting the forum in the best possible light as they want you to be an "ally". Conversely, most people on this forum have had hostile experiences with the A+safe forum, so it isn't viewed favorably.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:41 am

yeah, I am bewildered by my experience.
I got issues, and I am exploring humanist values.
I don't know if the correct word is humanism though, I guess it would be...
and anarchism, I am thinking I should learn more about anarchism for some reason.
thanks for your eloquent reply.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  piginthecity on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:09 pm

I think your thread title is a false dichotomy.

One other possibility is that they only discuss feminism even to the exclusion of other -isms.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:43 am

I found this...
I believe it reenforces your assertion that the thread title is a false dichotomy.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  piginthecity on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:58 am

It's quite possible that the woman in this pictured has a valid point.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that a university should do some work making new male students aware of consequences of their actions if they get carried away by a testosterone driven culture, and that they might in fact rape somebody in circumstances where they think it isn't rape or it's OK. Also, of course, lesser cases to do with sexual harrassment could be worked on as well.

When she says that she needs 'feminism' for that reason, then that's true in that educating everybody to a sensible extent about sexual harrassment is part of feminism, but it would be a bit sad if she feels that the radical femimism agenda, with all the baggage that goes with it, the conflation of different issues, and the exaggeration is the only sector of discourse which is prepared to address this issue.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:53 am

piginthecity wrote:It's quite possible that the woman in this pictured has a valid point.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that a university should do some work making new male students aware of consequences of their actions if they get carried away by a testosterone driven culture, and that they might in fact rape somebody in circumstances where they think it isn't rape or it's OK. Also, of course, lesser cases to do with sexual harrassment could be worked on as well.

When she says that she needs 'feminism' for that reason, then that's true in that educating everybody to a sensible extent about sexual harrassment is part of feminism, but it would be a bit sad if she feels that the radical femimism agenda, with all the baggage that goes with it, the conflation of different issues, and the exaggeration is the only sector of discourse which is prepared to address this issue.
what radical agenda addresses radical feminism?

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  piginthecity on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:11 am

I must have been unclear. By 'this issue' i meant the issue of sexual harrassment/rape. I was expressing my hope that most people would perceive it to be the case that the issue of sexual harrassment/rape can be addressed outside of radical feminism. A liberal agenda, for example (though not limited to this).

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:23 am

piginthecity wrote:I must have been unclear. By 'this issue' i meant the issue of sexual harrassment/rape. I was expressing my hope that most people would perceive it to be the case that the issue of sexual harrassment/rape can be addressed outside of radical feminism. A liberal agenda, for example (though not limited to this).
Have you been able to identify what you are promoting as an unifying agenda?

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  piginthecity on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 am

Hey, none -

I don't quite know why you're asking me this or who are what you are expecting me to unify. I was expressing the fact that any society which recognises personal autonomy and domain of one's own body is going to outlaw and condemn rape, and potentially support education on this issue including amongst young men. This is not the exclusive concern of any one particular ideological system.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:43 am

piginthecity wrote:Hey, none -

I don't quite know why you're asking me this or who are what you are expecting me to unify. I was expressing the fact that any society which recognises personal autonomy and domain of one's own body is going to outlaw and condemn rape, and potentially support education on this issue including amongst young men. This is not the exclusive concern of any one particular ideological system.
There are many ideological systems that are sexist, but I disagree with your assertion that any society ... blah..blah..blah...
However...
Supporting education of autonomy and domain of a human being's own body should be standard education and inclusive to the species, not exclusive to individual members of the species.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  uncrystal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:32 am

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but perhaps at the general direction of the conversation..

There seems to be this pervasive idea in feminism (or any ideology which buys in "rape culture") that men and boys need to be "taught" not to rape or be violent.

For example, when I was 10 or 11ish my mother (unfortunately) would allow me to watch Lifetime movies. Nearly every rapist I can recall from this genre was some rich kid whose parents basically "spoiled" him into being a rapist. Very rarely in any depiction of a rapist are we given a back story that extends beyond "he was always evil". I'd venture say that most rapists have sexual abuse in their pasts or some other type of severe trauma. The same can be said for domestically violent men, they likely watched someone being abused (or were abused themselves) as a child.

So, if rapists either have traumatic pasts or psychological disorders, the idea that sitting them down and saying "Yo, don't do that" will be helpful is laughable.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:33 am

uncrystal wrote:This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but perhaps at the general direction of the conversation..

There seems to be this pervasive idea in feminism (or any ideology which buys in "rape culture") that men and boys need to be "taught" not to rape or be violent.

For example, when I was 10 or 11ish my mother (unfortunately) would allow me to watch Lifetime movies. Nearly every rapist I can recall from this genre was some rich kid whose parents basically "spoiled" him into being a rapist. Very rarely in any depiction of a rapist are we given a back story that extends beyond "he was always evil". I'd venture say that most rapists have sexual abuse in their pasts or some other type of severe trauma. The same can be said for domestically violent men, they likely watched someone being abused (or were abused themselves) as a child.

So, if rapists either have traumatic pasts or psychological disorders, the idea that sitting them down and saying "Yo, don't do that" will be helpful is laughable.
What you have written here is ludicrous.
The "alpha" males that take trophy brides would agree with you.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  uncrystal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:57 am

none wrote:
uncrystal wrote:This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but perhaps at the general direction of the conversation..

There seems to be this pervasive idea in feminism (or any ideology which buys in "rape culture") that men and boys need to be "taught" not to rape or be violent.

For example, when I was 10 or 11ish my mother (unfortunately) would allow me to watch Lifetime movies. Nearly every rapist I can recall from this genre was some rich kid whose parents basically "spoiled" him into being a rapist. Very rarely in any depiction of a rapist are we given a back story that extends beyond "he was always evil". I'd venture say that most rapists have sexual abuse in their pasts or some other type of severe trauma. The same can be said for domestically violent men, they likely watched someone being abused (or were abused themselves) as a child.

So, if rapists either have traumatic pasts or psychological disorders, the idea that sitting them down and saying "Yo, don't do that" will be helpful is laughable.
What you have written here is ludicrous.
The "alpha" males that take trophy brides would agree with you.

I'm honestly not even sure what point you're trying to make, so I can't really reply.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:30 am

uncrystal wrote:
none wrote:
uncrystal wrote:This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but perhaps at the general direction of the conversation..

There seems to be this pervasive idea in feminism (or any ideology which buys in "rape culture") that men and boys need to be "taught" not to rape or be violent.

For example, when I was 10 or 11ish my mother (unfortunately) would allow me to watch Lifetime movies. Nearly every rapist I can recall from this genre was some rich kid whose parents basically "spoiled" him into being a rapist. Very rarely in any depiction of a rapist are we given a back story that extends beyond "he was always evil". I'd venture say that most rapists have sexual abuse in their pasts or some other type of severe trauma. The same can be said for domestically violent men, they likely watched someone being abused (or were abused themselves) as a child.

So, if rapists either have traumatic pasts or psychological disorders, the idea that sitting them down and saying "Yo, don't do that" will be helpful is laughable.
What you have written here is ludicrous.
The "alpha" males that take trophy brides would agree with you.

I'm honestly not even sure what point you're trying to make, so I can't really reply.
You watched movies that portrayed rapists as spoiled children yet are against saying "Yo, don't do that".
You have some dissonance in connecting the behavior with the education.
The outcome is different if the children are educated to be spoiled versus the children being educated by saying "Yo, don't do that", wouldn't you agree?

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  uncrystal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:50 pm

You watched movies that portrayed rapists as spoiled children yet are against saying "Yo, don't do that".
My point is that media directed specifically at women (such as lifetime movies) portrays rapists very differently than the reality of what is known about rapists based on statistics and studies.

I'm not opposed to saying "don't rape", I just severely doubt how effective it would be. Rapists need more than just stern talking to or a rational plea.

The outcome is different if the children are educated to be spoiled versus the children being educated by saying "Yo, don't do that", wouldn't you agree?
Again, I don't think anyone is specifically taught to rape or not to rape. Parents teach children (largely through example) to respect others' rights, wishes, privacy etc or not to. Although, this mostly happens at a very young age. My parents never sat me down and said "murder.. yo, don't do that".

To answer your question.. Yes I think what a child learns from their parents is very important, but I also think talking to a 5 year old is much much different than talking to an 18 year old.

If a male has gotten to 18 without learning to respect others, is a rapist, or a (serious) potential rapist then he needs more help than a college orientation can provide. It's a bit late for a basic introduction to respect.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:09 pm

uncrystal wrote:
You watched movies that portrayed rapists as spoiled children yet are against saying "Yo, don't do that".
My point is that media directed specifically at women (such as lifetime movies) portrays rapists very differently than the reality of what is known about rapists based on statistics and studies.

I'm not opposed to saying "don't rape", I just severely doubt how effective it would be. Rapists need more than just stern talking to or a rational plea.

The outcome is different if the children are educated to be spoiled versus the children being educated by saying "Yo, don't do that", wouldn't you agree?
Again, I don't think anyone is specifically taught to rape or not to rape. Parents teach children (largely through example) to respect others' rights, wishes, privacy etc or not to. Although, this mostly happens at a very young age. My parents never sat me down and said "murder.. yo, don't do that".

To answer your question.. Yes I think what a child learns from their parents is very important, but I also think talking to a 5 year old is much much different than talking to an 18 year old.

If a male has gotten to 18 without learning to respect others, is a rapist, or a (serious) potential rapist then he needs more help than a college orientation can provide. It's a bit late for a basic introduction to respect.
blah blah blah...
you can't be serious.
When I was a child another child visited us 3 children making the total number of children 4.
This visitor was older, but still a very much a child legally and by a wide margin not being an adult.
This child who was the visitor talked the 2 other children who were siblings into touching each others genitals.
I did not have visual acuity of the touching, but was informed that hand to genital contact occurred.
If you have learned anything please learn that children are educated and that education forms the basis of their behavior.
You must have learned that raping is wrong somewhere whether you remember the education is irrelevant, but what is important is that you learned that raping is wrong.
Human beings are curious creatures, we develop behavioral patterns and to suggest that if we don't mitigate the curiosity that is innate through education there will be undesired events occurring.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  Skep tickle on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:16 pm

none wrote:blah blah blah...
you can't be serious.
When I was a child another child visited us 3 children making the total number of children 4.
This visitor was older, but still a very much a child legally and by a wide margin not being an adult.
This child who was the visitor talked the 2 other children who were siblings into touching each others genitals.
I did not have visual acuity of the touching, but was informed that hand to genital contact occurred.
If you have learned anything please learn that children are educated and that education forms the basis of their behavior.
You must have learned that raping is wrong somewhere whether you remember the education is irrelevant, but what is important is that you learned that raping is wrong.
Human beings are curious creatures, we develop behavioral patterns and to suggest that if we don't mitigate the curiosity that is innate through education there will be undesired events occurring.
Children, siblings even, touching each others' genitals? Depending on their ages, this could be well within the scope of what's called "playing doctor" and is considered to be normal curiosity in young children.

But it sounds like this isn't something you were aware of them doing without the influence of this older boy (and also that you heard about it, but didn't see it).

So, I'm confused. Are you saying this was "rape", or perhaps suggesting that the older boy encouraged them to do it for his own gratification? Are you saying that it was involuntary on the part of either child?

Or just something that your siblings would have been taught was immoral behavior that therefore they should never do, akin to rape or murder?


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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:45 pm

Skep tickle wrote:
none wrote:blah blah blah...
you can't be serious.
When I was a child another child visited us 3 children making the total number of children 4.
This visitor was older, but still a very much a child legally and by a wide margin not being an adult.
This child who was the visitor talked the 2 other children who were siblings into touching each others genitals.
I did not have visual acuity of the touching, but was informed that hand to genital contact occurred.
If you have learned anything please learn that children are educated and that education forms the basis of their behavior.
You must have learned that raping is wrong somewhere whether you remember the education is irrelevant, but what is important is that you learned that raping is wrong.
Human beings are curious creatures, we develop behavioral patterns and to suggest that if we don't mitigate the curiosity that is innate through education there will be undesired events occurring.
Children, siblings even, touching each others' genitals? Depending on their ages, this could be well within the scope of what's called "playing doctor" and is considered to be normal curiosity in young children.

But it sounds like this isn't something you were aware of them doing without the influence of this older boy (and also that you heard about it, but didn't see it).

So, I'm confused. Are you saying this was "rape", or perhaps suggesting that the older boy encouraged them to do it for his own gratification? Are you saying that it was involuntary on the part of either child?

Or just something that your siblings would have been taught was immoral behavior that therefore they should never do, akin to rape or murder?

Children cannot give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.
Adults can give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  Skep tickle on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:50 pm

none wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:Children, siblings even, touching each others' genitals? Depending on their ages, this could be well within the scope of what's called "playing doctor" and is considered to be normal curiosity in young children.

But it sounds like this isn't something you were aware of them doing without the influence of this older boy (and also that you heard about it, but didn't see it).

So, I'm confused. Are you saying this was "rape", or perhaps suggesting that the older boy encouraged them to do it for his own gratification? Are you saying that it was involuntary on the part of either child?

Or just something that your siblings would have been taught was immoral behavior that therefore they should never do, akin to rape or murder?

Children cannot give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.
Adults can give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.
You didn't answer my questions. Let me rephrase, using your terminology: Are you saying that your 2 siblings, who (as you heard it) touched each others' genitalia, were sexually exploited by this older child? (If "yes", see my earlier questions above)

you said,
blah blah blah...
you can't be serious.
When I was a child another child visited us 3 children making the total number of children 4.
This visitor was older, but still a very much a child legally and by a wide margin not being an adult.
This child who was the visitor talked the 2 other children who were siblings into touching each others genitals....
and I am trying to figure out how that applies to uncrystal's post, which you'd quoted.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Skep tickle wrote:
none wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:Children, siblings even, touching each others' genitals? Depending on their ages, this could be well within the scope of what's called "playing doctor" and is considered to be normal curiosity in young children.

But it sounds like this isn't something you were aware of them doing without the influence of this older boy (and also that you heard about it, but didn't see it).

So, I'm confused. Are you saying this was "rape", or perhaps suggesting that the older boy encouraged them to do it for his own gratification? Are you saying that it was involuntary on the part of either child?

Or just something that your siblings would have been taught was immoral behavior that therefore they should never do, akin to rape or murder?

Children cannot give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.
Adults can give consent for sexual exploitation because they are human beings with rights and duties as prescribed by law.
You didn't answer my questions. Let me rephrase, using your terminology: Are you saying that your 2 siblings, who (as you heard it) touched each others' genitalia, were sexually exploited by this older child? (If "yes", see my earlier questions above)

you said,
blah blah blah...
you can't be serious.
When I was a child another child visited us 3 children making the total number of children 4.
This visitor was older, but still a very much a child legally and by a wide margin not being an adult.
This child who was the visitor talked the 2 other children who were siblings into touching each others genitals....
and I am trying to figure out how that applies to uncrystal's post, which you'd quoted.
No, I didn't hear the act genital contact because the act required no audible sound.
Those involved were not my siblings.
The older child talked to and preceded the 2 siblings and I had limited visual acuity of the 2 siblings during the time they were molesting each other sexually.
I was replying to this post by uncrystal:

Again, I don't think anyone is specifically taught to rape or not to rape. Parents teach children (largely through example) to respect others' rights, wishes, privacy etc or not to. Although, this mostly happens at a very young age. My parents never sat me down and said "murder.. yo, don't do that".
The older child had no concept of "respect others' rights, wishes, privacy, etc..." pertaining to the 2 sibling children and myself, and as a result molestation occurred.
If I had not been specifically told I should not perform the same behavior I would have accepted the behavior as normal and I would have repeated or attempted to repeat what I had observed until a circumstance of intervention or observation occurred that would change my perception of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable normal behavior and this observation contradicts uncrystal's assertion.
If you really must know...
This experience involving other children exposed the sexual exploitation of a child that had occurred in my own family, but I was sheltered from this information and as a result the pattern was repeated because of the dissonance that existed in my sibling's cognition about sheltering me from the truth that sexual exploitation of a child is unacceptable behavior.
It's a tragic story I know, but at least it's true, and I feel that I can express it without being ashamed or being ridiculed.
your turn...


Last edited by none on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  Dar on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:19 am

Unfortunately, children do need to be taught about inappropriate sexual behavior. Without that education, they simply don't know what is or isn't appropriate behavior.

One of my friends was repeatedly molested by an older relative when he was quite young. Not knowing anything about such behavior, he didn't know it was wrong or what to do about it. When he didn't like playing with this older relative (also a child), they dismissed him and he didn't know what more to do. So this continued for quite some time.

However, I seriously doubt his situation would have been improved if either he or his relative were told, 'don't rape'. Proper education should educate and inform while getting across that certain behaviors, such as rape, are not appropriate, without coming out and telling anyone, 'don't rape'.

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Re: do they discuss humanist values or just feminism and other isms?

Post  none on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:20 am

Dar wrote:Unfortunately, children do need to be taught about inappropriate sexual behavior. Without that education, they simply don't know what is or isn't appropriate behavior.

One of my friends was repeatedly molested by an older relative when he was quite young. Not knowing anything about such behavior, he didn't know it was wrong or what to do about it. When he didn't like playing with this older relative (also a child), they dismissed him and he didn't know what more to do. So this continued for quite some time.

However, I seriously doubt his situation would have been improved if either he or his relative were told, 'don't rape'. Proper education should educate and inform while getting across that certain behaviors, such as rape, are not appropriate, without coming out and telling anyone, 'don't rape'.
Try deductive logic and Aridane thread logic.
Create a society were rape does not occur.
Does this society know what rape is?

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